Biblical Revisions
June 30th 2007 20:41
I was talking to a sweet (but not very attentive) friend of mine today. She was bewailing our presence in Iraq and insisting that we have to get out of there RIGHT NOW. Has a familiar ring, doesn't it? I asked her where she was getting her news and it didn't surprise me a bit that it was from ABC, NBC and CBS. I asked her if she ever considered listening to Fox News Channel. She was horrified, saying that they don't know anything. I asked her if she had talked to anyone who had actually been there. She proudly said, Yes! Her cousin just came back from Iraq.
"What did he tell you?" I asked her.
"Well, he's with Special Forces and he couldn't say anything," she admitted.
I explained to her how kissing terrorist butt gave us 9/11 and she didn't understand. I explained how Bill (the Zipper) Clinton had several opportunities to fight back when we were attacked but was much too busy to bother. She couldn't recall anything like that.
"What do you think would happen if we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow?" I asked, exasperated.
"They wouldn't bother us anymore. I'm speaking biblically," she cried angrily.
"Biblically? Really? I'm not much of a Bible scholar, but doesn't the Bible say we should stand with Israel?"
"Yes! We have to support Israel. They're Gods people!" She told me, truimphantly.
"And what did the terrorists say they plan to do to Israel?"
"I don't know..." she whined.
"The Islamic terrorists swear to destroy Israel. Iran has promised to use nukes on Israel. If we leave, they'll do it," I explained with all the patience I could muster.
The conversation didn't last much longer. She accused me of "abusing" her and whined some more and I finally hung up. Then I got to thinking.
Barak Obama thinks he can use some form of Christianity to come to his rescue. Let's think about that for a moment. So far, he's against everything Christians stand for and in favor of everything they're against. (Partial birth abortion is fine with him. Killing a child who survives the horrific crime is acceptable to him as well... according to his own voting record. He likes gay marriage which most Christian churches oppose. He's against all the people we freed in Iraq while agreeing that slaves in other countries should be free. He's against showing any religious symbols... even at Christmas and Easter... while approving Muslim decorations.) Yep, he's a fine example of a Christian, right?
John Edwards calls the War on Terror a "bumpersticker" and thinks we're being unnecessarily frightened by the Bush Administration. 9/11 was some "bumpersticker" wasn't it? Why on Earth should we worry about it happening again? Just because there were two seperate attempted attacks in the UK in the last 24 hours... I mean, really.... and the very thought that the terrorists and their friends in Iran will really blow Israel (and everyone else) off the map is just scare tactics, right?
John Kerry and Hillary Clinton don't know where they stand from one day to the next, but my silly little friend hasn't noticed it yet.
Al Gore (who she believes wants to "save the earth") would spend years trying to figure out the perfect ecological response to another attack. According to his own rhetoric, people are the cause of all the Earth's problems. Would he actually care if a few million people died?
I'll probably be talking to her again in the next few days. The chances of her starting to think instead of recite the canned rhetoric of the left are pretty remote. But I keep hoping. What's really scary is how many people see the world through the same foggy lens and never try to get more information.
"What did he tell you?" I asked her.
"Well, he's with Special Forces and he couldn't say anything," she admitted.
I explained to her how kissing terrorist butt gave us 9/11 and she didn't understand. I explained how Bill (the Zipper) Clinton had several opportunities to fight back when we were attacked but was much too busy to bother. She couldn't recall anything like that.
"What do you think would happen if we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow?" I asked, exasperated.
"They wouldn't bother us anymore. I'm speaking biblically," she cried angrily.
"Biblically? Really? I'm not much of a Bible scholar, but doesn't the Bible say we should stand with Israel?"
"Yes! We have to support Israel. They're Gods people!" She told me, truimphantly.
"And what did the terrorists say they plan to do to Israel?"
"I don't know..." she whined.
"The Islamic terrorists swear to destroy Israel. Iran has promised to use nukes on Israel. If we leave, they'll do it," I explained with all the patience I could muster.
The conversation didn't last much longer. She accused me of "abusing" her and whined some more and I finally hung up. Then I got to thinking.
Barak Obama thinks he can use some form of Christianity to come to his rescue. Let's think about that for a moment. So far, he's against everything Christians stand for and in favor of everything they're against. (Partial birth abortion is fine with him. Killing a child who survives the horrific crime is acceptable to him as well... according to his own voting record. He likes gay marriage which most Christian churches oppose. He's against all the people we freed in Iraq while agreeing that slaves in other countries should be free. He's against showing any religious symbols... even at Christmas and Easter... while approving Muslim decorations.) Yep, he's a fine example of a Christian, right?
John Edwards calls the War on Terror a "bumpersticker" and thinks we're being unnecessarily frightened by the Bush Administration. 9/11 was some "bumpersticker" wasn't it? Why on Earth should we worry about it happening again? Just because there were two seperate attempted attacks in the UK in the last 24 hours... I mean, really.... and the very thought that the terrorists and their friends in Iran will really blow Israel (and everyone else) off the map is just scare tactics, right?
John Kerry and Hillary Clinton don't know where they stand from one day to the next, but my silly little friend hasn't noticed it yet.
Al Gore (who she believes wants to "save the earth") would spend years trying to figure out the perfect ecological response to another attack. According to his own rhetoric, people are the cause of all the Earth's problems. Would he actually care if a few million people died?
I'll probably be talking to her again in the next few days. The chances of her starting to think instead of recite the canned rhetoric of the left are pretty remote. But I keep hoping. What's really scary is how many people see the world through the same foggy lens and never try to get more information.
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Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
With that being said, after 4 years I have seen the reasons cited for our invasion of Iraq change more often than Britney Spears changes her mind about rehab. WMDs came and went, with nary a whiff of uranium yellow cake. The rhetoric about the Al Qaeda/Saddam Hussein link dissolved. Then came the idea that we "fight them there so they don't come here." That idea is so full of holes, I don't even know where to start. The administration has stuck with the "bringing democracy to the Middle East" story for awhile now, probably because they're out of new ideas.
Iraq is a colossal waste. Instead of throwing away precious money and lives there, we should have been crushing every last shred of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Now, as a result of our lapses there, the Taliban is gaining toeholds in pockets around the country. Bin Laden slipped out right from under our nose at Tora Bora because we half-assed the job by outsourcing to the locals. I won't even mention how ill-prepared we are to deal with Iran and North Korea, two countries scarier than Saddam's Iraq ever was.
I'm sort of amused by your inclusion of the "support Israel" idea. Yes, Christians (evangelical Christians in particular) are big on supporting Israel. However, this is not out of any altruistic, ecumenical feelings. The idea of Christian support for Israel stems from the notion that Jesus will not return until the Temple is rebuilt and then subsequently destroyed again by the Antichrist. At that point, Jesus will return on a flying unicorn wielding a divine M-16 assault rifle, smiting all those who have not sided with him. Including the Jews. So, when you look at the whole story, Christian support for Israel is perhaps not as noble as it may seem on the surface. In fact, it's downright selfish and manipulative. You probably won't hear that explanation on any of the networks, including Fox.
At any rate, opposing the war in Iraq is not synonymous with being anti-American, coddling terrorists, or any other epithets you may choose to hurl. Opposing the war in Iraq equates to lamenting the fact that we're not kicking ass somewhere else where it would be more effective. As for the oft-cited statistic that it's been 6 years since the terrorists struck here, let me point out that it was EIGHT years between the first and second World Trade Center attacks. And that was without the "benefit" of the Iraq war to protect us.....
One last point. You mention at the end that "what's really scary is how many people see the world through the same foggy lens and never try to get more information." That is true. But, didn't your friend tell you that she watches 3 different news networks, only to have you suggest that she watch a different one? How is utilizing one network with a slightly different political slant any less of a "foggy lens" than watching 3 networks? Yes, ABC, NBC, and CBS are slightly more left leaning compared to Fox's conservative stance, but news is news. The only thing that changes is the direction of the spin. It seems to me that you don't want people to get more information so much as you want them to get more conservative ideology. Forgive me if I offend, but in my way of thinking that makes you guilty of the very same charge of "reciting canned rhetoric" that you level at others. As a very famous fictional character once said, "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Regardless of the reasons why we are there, the fact remains that we are, indeed, there. Deal with it, already. No one in their right mind can deny that Iraq would be up for grabs if we left prematurely. Ahmadinejad has made it quite clear that he intends to use whatever means he can to remove us from the area and Israel from the planet. In case you'd forgotten, Israel is one of our allies.
My use of Biblical referrences was in response to my friends use of them. She was twisting the words for her own argument (which lots of people do) and horrified when I pointed out that she was innacurate.
I suggested that she try watching Fox news to give her a different perspective. ABC, CBS and NBC serve only vanilla. I thought she might like a little Fox strawberry! By the way, I watch a variety of news programs on several networks, I simply prefer Fox because they don't editorialize nearly as much as the others.
Eight years between attacks on the WTC. True. Did you forget the embassies? The Cole? The barracks? We also weren't in Iraq when they were attacked. The attacks happened because the terrorists want to kill us and didn't think we'd do anything about it. They kept getting braver all the time, until 9/11. I repeat what I told my friend. We haven't been attacked since we went to Afghanistan and Iraq and took the war to them. Not that they haven't tried... the CIA, FBI MI6 and other intel. agencies have done a great job of preventing several potential disasters both here and abroad. In case you haven't noticed, not all the al Qaeda's and other terrorists live in Afghanistan. Muslim radicals who are conducting their "jihad" against the rest of the world come from all over the place. Some are even "home grown" while others travel to commit their crimes. The very idea that there were no terrorists in Iraq until we got there is ludicrous!
About your own Biblical referrences, the return of Jesus Christ is said to be "riding a white ass over a bridge of paper." No weaponry was mentioned. Your use of the term "fictional" merely displays your ignorance. His existence is a documented fact, via many sources beyond the Bible. (Including the census.)
If I may paraphrase your final argument... "Take your foot from your own mouth before attempting to voice your arguments."
Comment by Natasha
Jesus is real and historically documented. He will return and if we don't stand with God's chosen people he will not stand with us.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I never argued the point that now that we're in Iraq, we're stuck. Obviously, we cannot simply leave now (however tempting it may be) with the country in its current state of unrest. It would be madness. We are very much in a "you broke it, you bought it" situation. I'm merely bemoaning the fact that our invasion of Iraq was based on faulty intelligence and misguided ideas. Initially I favored the invasion, as I assumed that our government would not take action such as a preemptive strike without iron clad proof that such action was needed. My disillusionment happened gradually, as "we're sure" changed to "we thought" on issue after issue. Gradually, it dawned on me that we'd made a colossal mistake.
The fact of the matter is, for every terrorist we've killed in Iraq, we've created two more. The administration grossly misjudged the ideology and fervor of the fundamentalist Islamists over there. Yes, there are moderate Iraqis who welcome our presence, but their voices are overwhelmed by the shouts of hardline Islamists who view our presence on their soil as sacrilege. We're not talking about Al Qaeda here, but about a native population that hates us. Foreign fighters came in to add fuel to the fire, but "terrorist camps" in Iraq was a myth. And even if it weren't, there were many other countries where we know training grounds existed: Pakistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia.....and yet we invade Iraq? Of course foreign fighters came. We might as well have hung up a sign that said "kill Americans here". In the meantime, we're not striking at the core of their strongholds, merely swiping at the feints they make at us in Iraq. Right now, this is a cycle without end. I will continue to regret the fact that we're in the wrong spot to be truly effective.
As for establishing a free, democratic state there, that is (as we're learning) easier said than done. For many, many Muslims, religion and politics are intrinsically linked. To them the idea of one without the other is completely unthinkable. OUR idea of democracy may not play in the Middle East, something that we failed to consider. The American system, however good it is (and despite it's flaws, I believe that we have the best system of government in the world today) may simply not work in such a dramatically different climate. Call it the "square peg, round hole" argument. Maybe we can force it to fit, but it may not work the way we want it to afterwards.....
I am well aware of the Cole, embassies, and everything else. My reference was explicitly about attacks on U.S. soil, not on interests overseas. So far, we have been lucky, and the Feds have done a good job at breaking up several plots. That luck will end someday. That's nothing but the truth, as even every government agency involved will admit. I cringe simply thinking about it, SL, I really do. I was in Manhattan on 9/11, and it is not a scene I wish to see again. But we will. Whether we invade Iraq or not, or if we invade every majority Muslim country on the planet, we will be hit again someday. As you rightly point out, terrorists come from all over, including from within. It's a matter of numbers; eventually someone will get through. To my way of thinking, the resources spent on Iraq would be better utilized on protecting ourselves here. Less than 2% of incoming overseas shipments are inspected currently. That must be a very tempting statistic for some people....
Yes, I know what the Bible actually says about Jesus' return. You may not have noticed, but I was being facetious. Although, to be truthful, the imagery I used is not far off from "popular" notions of Armageddon. As for my use of the word "fictional" I suggest you do some more fact checking. Extra-biblical sources about the existence of Jesus are shaky at best. Most sources are from decades after his death. The census itself is an extremely dubious source, as the dates cited in the Bible and the dates gleaned from other historical documents are wildly off. There were many Roman historians living in the region at the time of Jesus' supposed ministry, and they recorded numerous events of the times. However, Jesus, who performed miracles, was followed by thousands, rose from the dead and then appeared to 500 people, is not mentioned by any of these historians. Not once. You'd think they would have noticed all that transpiring around them? Christians cite a couple sentences from Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius (as well as a few others) as "proof" of Jesus existence. These were all 2nd century writers who merely were passing on the 5th hand accounts they heard. None of them mention Jesus by name, and none of them provide the slightest detail about his life. The fact of the matter is, most of the early Christian writings (the Pauline epistles, the writings of Q,etc.) refer to Jesus as a spiritual entity and not a man. The historical, human Jesus gradually emerged from the nascent theology.
Maybe there was a figure who was the historical basis for Jesus. After all, would-be prophets and Messiahs were falling over each other at that time. However, a critical look at the facts does not really lend credence to the historicity of Jesus. The facts do not disprove Jesus either, of course, they simply make him unlikely. As an aside, you can accuse me of ignorance in any number of topics, but when it comes to comparative religion please do not presume that I don't know what I'm talking about. You attacked me for using the word "fictional" and apparently thought I was against having Israel as an ally (which I'm not, I just find the Biblical reasons for it hypocritical and ridiculous) but never addressed my underlying criticism that Christian support for Israel is predicated on the belief that the Jews are a means to an end. An end that has no place in it for the people of Israel, I might add. You mention the value of getting the "whole story' about issues. Well, there's a lot more to learn about these issues, if you're curious. What I've included here is extremely cursory; it's just too large a topic to fit too many details into a response. But, I'm realizing that I've veered hugely from the core of this topic, so let me reel it back in.
I'll let you have the final say on this. I'm writing responses to you that are longer than some of my posts. I have other things to do (as, I'm sure, do you!) so I won't take up more of your time. Please understand, I am not attacking you personally. However, I do disagree with you in some fundamental ways. This being a public forum, disagreement and discussion are part of the package. If I've cause any personal offense, it was not my intention. In the end, I'm assuming that you and I will simply have to agree to disagree here.
Comment by S.L.Bradish